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Rogue changes in WoW Forever: every spell and talent vs Classic

Rotations & Guide · PvE · PvP · Builds · Abilities · Talent Calculator · Macros · Changes vs Classic

Every Rogue change in the WoW Forever beta client (build 1.60.1.70170) compared with Classic Era 1.15.9.69722: 9 new talents, 10 new or changed spells, 34 changed talents, 4 Classic spells and talents removed, 10 Season of Discovery leftovers. Each spell lists every rank's damage or healing, spell power coefficient, cost, cast time, range and duration in both clients, written as "Forever instead of Classic". Classic Era is only the baseline: every Forever number comes from the Forever client's own data. Ranks learned above the beta's level cap (30) are in the client but can't be reached yet.

Jump to: New spells · New talents · Changed spells · Changed talents · Removed · Season of Discovery leftovers

New Rogue spells in Forever

Coup de Grace New

New in Forever.

New Rogue talents

Dirty Tricks New talent

New Subtlety talent, tier 2, 2 ranks, from level 15.

Forever (Rank 2): Reduces the Energy cost of your Sap and Blind abilities by 50%.

Puncturing Wounds New talent (Classic Era: Improved Backstab)

New Combat talent in the place of Classic's Improved Backstab.

Classic Era (Rank 3): Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.

Forever (Rank 3): Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab by 30% and your Mutilate by 15%, and gives Backstab a 45% chance to add an additional Combo Point.

Improved Distract New talent

New Subtlety talent, tier 3, 2 ranks, from level 20.

Forever (Rank 2): Increases the radius of your Distract ability by 5 yds, and further reduces the Stealth detection of distracted enemies as though they were an additional 2 levels lower.

Flawless Execution New talent (Classic Era: Dagger Specialization)

New Combat talent in the place of Classic's Dagger Specialization.

Classic Era (Rank 1): Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Daggers by 5%.

Forever (Rank 1): Reduces the Energy cost of your Eviscerate ability by 10.

Mutilate New talent

New Assassination talent, tier 5, 1 rank, from level 30; costs more energy (vs its Season of Discovery version); learned later.

RankLevelForeverClassic EraCoefficientClassic coefficientCost
Rank 130—new in Forever——60 Energy
Rank 240—— (Season of Discovery)——60 Energy instead of 40 Energy
Rank 350—new in Forever——60 Energy
Rank 460—new in Forever——60 Energy

Forever (Rank 1): Instantly attacks with both weapons for 75% weapon damage plus an additional 17 with each weapon. Damage increased by 20% against Poisoned targets. Awards 2 Combo Points.

Cutthroat New talent (Classic Era: Deadliness)

New Subtlety talent in the place of Classic's Deadliness.

Season of Discovery (Rank 5): Increases your Attack Power by 10%.

Forever (Rank 5): Your Backstab has a 15% chance to cause your next Ambush within 10 sec to not require Stealth.

Quietus New talent

New Subtlety talent, tier 6, 5 ranks, from level 35.

Forever (Rank 5): Your Sinister Strike, Ghostly Strike, and Hemorrhage abilities cause 10% more damage against targets below 35% health.

Thousand Cuts New talent

New Subtlety talent, tier 7, 1 rank, from level 40.

Forever (Rank 1): When your Rupture ability deals periodic damage, the Energy cost of your next Hemorrhage or Backstab ability within 10 sec is reduced by 3, stacking up to 5 times.

Venom New talent

New Assassination talent, tier 7, 1 rank, from level 40.

Forever (Rank 1): Finishing move that increases the damage of your Poisons by 30% and your chance to apply Poisons by 10%. Lasts longer per combo point: 1 point : 9 sec 2 points: 12 sec 3 points: 15 sec 4 points: 18 sec 5 points: 21 sec

Changed Rogue spells, rank by rank

Classic Era's coefficients for ranks learned before level 20 include Classic's low-level penalty; the Forever client gives those ranks their full coefficient (see the downrank calculator).

One-Handed Axes Gained

Weapon or armor skill: learned from level 1 (not in Classic Era).

Eviscerate Changed

Tooltip changed.

RankLevelForeverClassic EraCoefficientClassic coefficient
Rank 111–5 + 5 per combo point1–5 + 5 per combo point11
Rank 283–11 + 11 per combo point3–11 + 11 per combo point11
Rank 3166–20 + 19 per combo point6–20 + 19 per combo point11
Rank 42410–30 + 31 per combo point10–30 + 31 per combo point11
Rank 53215–45 + 45 per combo point15–45 + 45 per combo point11
Rank 64022–66 + 71 per combo point22–66 + 71 per combo point11
Rank 74834–102 + 110 per combo point34–102 + 110 per combo point11
Rank 85648–144 + 151 per combo point48–144 + 151 per combo point11
Rank 96054–162 + 170 per combo point54–162 + 170 per combo point11

Classic Era (Rank 6): Finishing move that causes damage per combo point, increased by Attack Power: 1 point : 99-143 damage 2 points: 176-220 damage 3 points: 253-297 damage 4 points: 330-374 damage 5 points: 407-451 damage

Forever (Rank 6): Finishing move that causes damage per combo point, increased by Attack Power: 1 point : 93-137 damage 2 points: 164-208 damage 3 points: 235-279 damage 4 points: 306-350 damage 5 points: 377-421 damage

Backstab Changed

Tooltip changed.

RankLevelForeverClassic EraCoefficientClassic coefficient
Rank 14150% weapon damage + 10150% weapon damage + 10——
Rank 212150% weapon damage + 20150% weapon damage + 20——
Rank 320150% weapon damage + 32150% weapon damage + 32——
Rank 428150% weapon damage + 46150% weapon damage + 46——
Rank 536150% weapon damage + 60150% weapon damage + 60——
Rank 644150% weapon damage + 90150% weapon damage + 90——
Rank 752150% weapon damage + 110150% weapon damage + 110——
Rank 860150% weapon damage + 140150% weapon damage + 140——
Rank 960150% weapon damage + 150150% weapon damage + 150——

Classic Era (Rank 9): Backstab the target, causing 150% weapon damage plus 225 to the target. Must be behind the target. Requires a dagger in the main hand. Awards 1 combo point.

Forever (Rank 9): Backstab the target, causing 150% weapon damage plus 150 to the target. Must be behind the target. Requires a dagger in the main hand. Awards 1 combo point.

Gouge Changed

Tooltip changed.

RankLevelForeverClassic EraCoefficientClassic coefficient
Rank 16101011
Rank 218202011
Rank 332323211
Rank 446555511
Rank 560757511

Classic Era (Rank 5): Causes 75 damage, incapacitating the opponent for 4 sec, and turns off your attack. Target must be facing you. Any damage caused will revive the target. Awards 1 combo point.

Forever (Rank 5): Causes 75 damage, stops your attack, and incapacitates the target for 4 sec. The target must be facing you. Any damage taken will break the effect. Awards 1 combo point.

Sap Changed

Tooltip changed.

RankLevelForeverClassic EraCoefficientClassic coefficient
Rank 110————
Rank 228————
Rank 348————

Classic Era (Rank 3): Incapacitates the target for up to 45 sec. Must be stealthed. Only works on Humanoids that are not in combat. Any damage caused will revive the target. Only 1 target may be sapped at a time.

Forever (Rank 3): Incapacitates the target for up to 45 sec. Only works on Humanoids that are not in combat. Any damage taken will break the effect. Only 1 target may be sapped at a time. Does not break Stealth.

Expose Armor Changed

Stronger effect (all 5 ranks).

RankLevelForeverClassic EraCoefficientClassic coefficient
Rank 114−90 per combo point−80 per combo point——
Rank 226−180 per combo point−145 per combo point——
Rank 336−270 per combo point−210 per combo point——
Rank 446−360 per combo point−275 per combo point——
Rank 556−450 per combo point−340 per combo point——

Rank 1: −90 per combo point instead of −80 per combo point; Rank 2: −180 per combo point instead of −145 per combo point; Rank 3: −270 per combo point instead of −210 per combo point; Rank 4: −360 per combo point instead of −275 per combo point; Rank 5: −450 per combo point instead of −340 per combo point.

Classic Era (Rank 5): Finishing move that exposes the target for 30 sec, reducing armor per combo point: 1 point : 340 armor 2 points: 680 armor 3 points: 1020 armor 4 points: 1360 armor 5 points: 1700 armor

Forever (Rank 5): Finishing move that exposes the target for 30 sec, reducing Armor per combo point: 1 point : 450 Armor 2 points: 900 Armor 3 points: 1350 Armor 4 points: 1800 Armor 5 points: 2250 Armor

Rupture Changed

Less damage (all 6 ranks).

RankLevelForeverClassic EraCoefficientClassic coefficient
Rank 12015 over 6 sec24 over 6 sec——
Rank 22821 over 6 sec36 over 6 sec——
Rank 33633 over 6 sec54 over 6 sec——
Rank 44448 over 6 sec81 over 6 sec——
Rank 55266 over 6 sec111 over 6 sec——
Rank 660105 over 6 sec180 over 6 sec——

Rank 1: 15 over 6 sec instead of 24 over 6 sec; Rank 2: 21 over 6 sec instead of 36 over 6 sec; Rank 3: 33 over 6 sec instead of 54 over 6 sec; Rank 4: 48 over 6 sec instead of 81 over 6 sec; Rank 5: 66 over 6 sec instead of 111 over 6 sec; Rank 6: 105 over 6 sec instead of 180 over 6 sec.

Classic Era (Rank 6): Finishing move that causes damage over time, increased by your Attack Power. Lasts longer per combo point: 1 point : 272 damage over 8 secs 2 points: 380 damage over 10 secs 3 points: 504 damage over 12 secs 4 points: 644 damage over 14 secs 5 points: 800 damage over 16 secs

Forever (Rank 6): Finishing move that causes damage over time, increased by your Attack Power. Lasts longer per combo point: 1 point : 159 damage over 8 secs 2 points: 222 damage over 10 secs 3 points: 295 damage over 12 secs 4 points: 377 damage over 14 secs 5 points: 469 damage over 16 secs

Distract Changed

Duration 10 sec instead of none.

RankLevelForeverClassic EraCoefficientClassic coefficientDuration
—22−5———10 sec instead of none

Classic Era: Throws a distraction, attracting the attention of all nearby monsters for 10 seconds. Does not break stealth.

Forever: Throws a distraction, attracting the attention of all nearby enemies and reducing their Stealth detection as if they were 1 level lower for 10 seconds. Does not break stealth.

Changed Rogue talents

Camouflage Changed

Moved to tier 1; top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 5): Increases your speed while stealthed by 15% and reduces the cooldown of your Stealth ability by 5 sec.

Forever (Rank 5): Reduces your speed penalty from your Stealth ability by 15% and reduces its cooldown by 6 sec.

Improved Eviscerate Changed

Moved to Combat; top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 3): Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Forever (Rank 3): Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 20%.

Improved Gouge Changed

Moved to Assassination; top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 3): Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 sec.

Forever (Rank 3): Increases the duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 sec.

Malice Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 5): Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Forever (Rank 5): Increases your critical strike chance with all attacks and Poisons by 5%.

Master of Deception Changed

3 ranks instead of 5; top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 3 (Era rank 5)): Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4).

Forever (Rank 3 (Era rank 5)): Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode as if you were 3 levels higher.

Opportunity Changed

2 ranks instead of 5; top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 2 (Era rank 5)): Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.

Forever (Rank 2 (Era rank 5)): Increases the damage dealt by your Backstab, Garrote, Ambush, and Mutilate abilities by 10%.

Remorseless Attacks Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 2): After killing an opponent that yields experience or honor, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Ghostly Strike. Lasts 20 sec.

Forever (Rank 2): After killing a non-trivial enemy, gives you a 40% increased critical strike chance on your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, Mutilate, or Ghostly Strike. Lasts 20 sec.

Deflection Changed

3 ranks instead of 5; top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 3 (Era rank 5)): Increases your Parry chance by 5%.

Forever (Rank 3 (Era rank 5)): Increases your Parry chance by 6%.

Elusiveness Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 2): Reduces the cooldown of your Vanish and Blind abilities by 1.5 min.

Forever (Rank 2): Reduces the cooldown of your Vanish and Blind abilities by 90 sec.

Improved Ambush Changed

Moved to tier 2.

Murder Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 2): Increases all damage caused against Humanoid, Giant, Beast and Dragonkin targets by 2%.

Forever (Rank 2): Increases all damage dealt by 4% against Humanoid and Giant targets.

Precision Changed

3 ranks instead of 5; top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 3 (Era rank 5)): Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.

Forever (Rank 3 (Era rank 5)): Improves your chance to hit by 3%.

Setup Changed

Moved to tier 2; top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 3): Gives you a 45% chance to add a combo point to your target after dodging their attack or fully resisting one of their spells.

Forever (Rank 3): Gives you a 100% chance to add a Combo Point to your target after Dodging one of their attacks or fully resisting one of their spells.

Endurance Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 2): Reduces the cooldown of your Sprint and Evasion abilities by 1.5 min.

Forever (Rank 2): Reduces the cooldown of your Sprint and Evasion abilities by 60%.

Ghostly Strike Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 1): A strike that deals 125% weapon damage and increases your chance to dodge by 15% for 7 sec. Awards 1 combo point.

Forever (Rank 1): A strike that deals 125% (180% if a Dagger is equipped in your Main Hand) weapon damage and increases your chance to dodge by 15% for 7 sec. Awards 1 combo point.

Improved Expose Armor Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 2): Increases the armor reduced by your Expose Armor ability by 50%.

Forever (Rank 2): Reduces the Energy cost of your Expose Armor ability by 10, and refunds 2 Combo Points when cast with 5 Combo Points.

Initiative Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 3): Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.

Forever (Rank 3): Gives you a 100% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.

Lethality Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 5): Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ghostly Strike, and Hemorrhage abilities by 30%.

Forever (Rank 5): Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Mutilate, Ghostly Strike, and Hemorrhage abilities by 20%.

Cold Blood Changed

Moved to tier 4; top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 1): When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.

Forever (Rank 1): When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, Eviscerate, or Mutilate by 100%.

Dual Wield Specialization Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 5): Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.

Forever (Rank 5): Increases the damage done by your off-hand weapon by 25%.

Heightened Senses Changed

Moved to tier 4; top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 2): Increases your Stealth detection and reduces the chance you are hit by spells and ranged attacks by 4%. More effective than Heightened Senses (Rank 1).

Forever (Rank 2): Increases your Stealth detection as if you were 3 levels higher and reduces your chance to be hit by spells and ranged attacks by 4%.

Improved Poisons Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 5): Increases the chance to apply poisons to your target by 10%.

Forever (Rank 5): Increases the chance to apply Poisons to your target by 10%, and gives Poison applications a 50% chance to not consume a charge.

Premeditation Changed

Usable in or out of Stealth; moved to tier 4; top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 1): When used, adds 2 combo points to your target. You must add to or use those combo points within 10 sec or the combo points are lost.

Forever (Rank 1): Adds 2 Combo Points to your target. You must add to or use those combo points within 20 sec or the combo points are lost.

Serrated Blades Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 3): Causes your attacks to ignore ? of your target's Armor and increases the damage dealt by your Rupture ability by 30%. The amount of Armor reduced increases with your level.

Forever (Rank 3): Causes your attacks to ignore 9% of your target's Armor and increases the damage dealt by your Rupture ability by 30%.

Vile Poisons Changed

Moved to tier 4.

Blade Flurry Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 1): Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 sec.

Forever (Rank 1): Increases your melee attack speed by 20% and your melee attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 sec.

Dirty Deeds Changed

Moved to tier 5; top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 2): Reduces the Energy cost of your Cheap Shot and Garrote abilities by 20.

Forever (Rank 2): Reduces the Energy cost of your Cheap Shot and Garrote abilities by 20, and your Garrote ability no longer requires you to be behind your target.

Hack and Slash Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 5): Gives you a 5% chance to get an extra attack on the same target after dealing damage with your Sword.

Forever (Rank 5): Gives your melee weapon attacks a benefit depending on the weapon. Axe/Sword: Your successful melee attacks have a 5% chance to trigger an extra attack on the target. Dagger/Fist: Increases your critical strike chance by 5%. Mace: Your attacks ignore 15% of your target's armor.

Hemorrhage Changed

Moved to tier 5; top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 1): An instant strike that damages the opponent and causes the target to hemorrhage, increasing any Physical damage dealt to the target by up to 3. Lasts 30 charges or 15 sec. Awards 1 combo point.

Forever (Rank 1): An instant strike that deals 100% weapon damage (145% if a Dagger is equipped) and causes the target to take 15% increased Rupture damage from the Rogue. Lasts 15 sec. Awards 1 Combo Point.

Improved Kidney Shot Changed

2 ranks instead of 3; top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 2 (Era rank 3)): While affected by your Kidney Shot ability, the target receives an additional 9% damage from all sources.

Forever (Rank 2 (Era rank 3)): Enemies Stunned by your Kidney Shot ability take 10% increased damage from your poisons and attacks.

Vigor Changed

Moved to tier 5; 2 ranks instead of 1.

Aggression Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 3): Increases the damage of your Sinister Strike and Eviscerate abilities by 6%.

Forever (Rank 3): Increases the damage of your Sinister Strike, Backstab, and Eviscerate abilities by 6%.

Seal Fate Changed

Moved to tier 6.

Weapon Expertise Changed

Top rank's effect changed.

Classic Era (Rank 2): Increases your skill with Sword, Fist and Dagger weapons by 5.

Forever (Rank 2): Reduces the chance for your attacks to be Dodged or Parried by 2%.

Classic Rogue spells and talents not in Forever

Fist Weapon Specialization Removed talent

Classic Era Combat talent (tier 5), not in Forever's talent trees.

Classic Era (Rank 5): Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Fist Weapons by 5%.

Improved Sap Removed talent

Classic Era Subtlety talent (tier 4), not in Forever's talent trees.

Classic Era (Rank 3): Gives you a 90% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.

Mace Specialization Removed talent

Classic Era Combat talent (tier 5), not in Forever's talent trees.

Classic Era (Rank 5): Increases your skill with Maces by 5, and gives you a 6% chance to stun your target for 3 sec with a mace.

Sleight of Hand Removed talent

Classic Era Subtlety talent (tier 2), not in Forever's talent trees.

Classic Era (Rank 2): Reduces the chance you are critically hit by melee and ranged attacks by 2% and increases the threat reduction of your Feint ability by 20%.

Season of Discovery leftovers

Speculation: these 10 Season of Discovery spells are still in the Forever client files, but no Forever trainer, quest or talent teaches them, so they are probably unused.

Unchanged Rogue abilities

The same as Classic Era in the client data (every rank's numbers and tooltip):

Source: the WoW Forever beta client's spell and talent tables (build 1.60.1.70170), compared with the Classic Era 1.15.9.69722 client by spell ID and name. Spell IDs from 395000 up are Season of Discovery spells the Classic Era client also carries: those are compared with their Season of Discovery version.